Wednesday, September 29, 2010

Childbirth Robot....WHY???

So I stumbled across this video today. It’s a robot designed to help med student learn how to birth babies without having to practice on an actual human being.

WARNING: This video is potentially disturbing and may not be suitable for all viewers.

I am all about med students getting the training that they need in order to practice medicine. I mean, who really wants to go to a doctor who says, “I’ve never actually done this before.” I’m pretty sure that I can speak for most people when I say NOT ME. However, this robot is creeptastic. What’s with the freaky robot noise? I feel like I could record a better sound effect on my phone... The design of this robot was with good intentions, but the execution of it just comes off awkward and weird. Especially since the robot isn’t even a full female body, merely the necessary parts to practice childbirth. This is once again reducing women to their ability to reproduce and the body parts that are necessary to do so. Maybe I’m reading too much into this…what are your thoughts on the matter?

I Already Have a Pair

So I'm reading some women's magazine (a mistake, I know) and I come across this article entitled: Do You Need to Grow a Pair?

Are you effing kidding me? I'm reading a magazine that is supposed to be for women and here they are perpetuating the notion that assertiveness and confidence are innately connected to whether or not you have testicles. I mean seriously! No, I do not need to grow a pair of balls because I am female. My pair of ovaries are fully functioning and give me the ability to contribute my genetic material to offspring—if I so choose.

I know what you’re thinking: calm down, Sha’Donna, they don’t mean you literally need to grow a pair. Yeah, I understand the use of figurative language just fine. But the metaphor is problematic in what it implies about the “nature” of being male and female. If the women’s magazine is trying to instruct women to go against confining gender norms that encourage women to be passive, unassertive and polite, then kudos to them because some women do need to practice standing up for themselves. But likening becoming more assertive to having a pair of balls reinforces the gender norms that they are encouraging women to resist and that is kind of ridiculous.

Can I have a Triple Bypass with my Shake?

In a recent article by, one restaurant is under the spotlight for their interesting niche…eating to death. The Heart Attack Grill (yes that really is the name) has become famous for commodifying gluttonous eating, hospital stays, and serious health issues. In a country where people are developing Type II diabetes at an alarming rate, and children are predicated to have a shorter lifespan than their parents, I feel that it this restaurant is a bit…tacky, disgusting, insensitive, all the above.

Is there anything good about restaurant? Well, one can eat here for free, but there is a weight minimum: 350lbs. This restaurant really is all about the shock factor; the waitresses are dressed like “hot nurses” (an issue for another blog post!), hospital gowns are used as bibs, and patrons are escorted out of the restaurant in a wheelchair, courtesy of said “hot nurses”.
So what about the food? Well, as one would expect of such a restaurant, their menu consists of unfiltered cigarettes, “Bypass Burgers,” and even “Flatliner Fries”.

On that note, I’m off to get a salad or something.

Thursday, September 23, 2010

How Much of a Woman

Feminism, art and film - these are a few of my favorite things. So, to get them all together in one package is such a thrill for me. The artist is Liron Kroll and this short was the final project for her first degree in communication arts.

The video is about all the ways women are quantified and measured up: shoe size, height, waist measurements, bra size, age, a woman’s “number,” etc. It's not a new idea, but it's a unique way of expressing it; the rapid progression of still photographs is visually striking.

Added bonus, it’s set to Bruce Springsteen’s “I’m On Fire!”

Warning: the video does show a breast and menstrual blood. Probably not safe for work, unless you work at the WRC!

Wednesday, September 22, 2010


In our culture, thin is “in.” There are all kinds of opposing views over negative body image and how the media may contribute to it. Is it that the media promotes an ideal that we as a society passively accept, or is it that the media is responding to something that’s already there? For example, in certain African cultures, fat is “all that.” Before a girl gets married she will be sent to a “fattening” tent and force fed until she gains weight. Extra weight is considered sexy. Women put on as many clothes as they can before they step onto a scale, hoping to see the number be just a little bit higher. That is the exact opposite of the common practice of removing shoes and socks in the hopes of seeing a lower number .

People say, “Look at us Westerners, we’re so lame, we should learn from these women in other countries.” It’s not that simple. I notice two crazy things about these opposing perceptions of weight and beauty. First and foremost, why is it that the ideal is the opposite of what is easiest? As in, in our culture, where food is over abundant, why isn’t the ideal to be larger … because it’s so easy to keep weight on with all of our high calorie and affordable options? And in areas where food is more scarce, where it would be almost natural to maintain a low weight, why is the ideal heftiness? What the heck? Are we as humans masochistic?

The second and more troubling thing I notice is the gendered way these ideals manifest. Why is it always put primarily on women to bear the brunt of body size/beauty standards? I don’t have an answer to this question, but I am definitely interested in researching it, formally and informally. In order for us to do away with the policing of body size, we have to understand who’s doing the policing and why. I don’t think we can blame it all on Cosmo and Vogue… most of it, but not all.

Got To Love Technology

Many have heard the sarcastic phrase “got to love technology” come from the mouth of a frustrated user. I myself have said this multiple times, usually after a fight with whatever complicated piece of equipment I just used. With all the updates that go into each laptop, mP3 player, television, and cell phone every year, one would think that it should all become easier to use; but I feel as if these constant revisions has only complicated my life more. Only three years out of high school and I already get confused at the words my little sister spews out whenever she is talking about her new iPod touch, or the latest social networking site. Twit-what? Blue-ray who? Can’t we just call our friends over and pop in an old VHS or DVD?

I suppose that I’m dealing with a bout of nostalgia, but I cannot help but be annoyed when my close friends and family would rather text me than call me. I also can’t help but get miffed at the fact that technology has changed (possibly ruined?) social interactions for everyone. Do I really need to compete against a cell phone for attention from my sister when we are out having lunch?

Now, I’m not saying that technology hasn’t made my life easier; we all know it has (hello GPS!). But do I really need to have texting, internet on my cell phone, and touch screens on everything, in exchange of actual human contact? Are people seriously buying another touch-screen device to read books from, rather than actual tangible books? Perhaps I am sipping on Hater-ade too much, but I hate the feeling of helplessness whenever a computer goes crazy or my cell phone is lost or has died. I know it’s not just me; don’t we all miss the good old days sometimes?

Tuesday, September 21, 2010

Creating Competencies and Understanding…about Porn?

I found this article on Alternet today, and I absolutely love it. The ever-increasing availability and accessibility of porn is undeniable. As Tarrant points out,

“‘Sex’ is the number-one search term used around the globe. Every second, people spend $3,000 on Internet porn. There are an estimated 370 million Internet porn sites, and industry revenues surpass earnings by Microsoft, Google, Amazon, eBay, Yahoo, Apple, and Netflix combined.”

If that doesn’t qualify as popular, then I don’t know what does. The popularity and importance of porn is compounded by the fact that many youth are taking it upon themselves to learn about sex via pornography, due to a lack of comprehensive sex education. Not everyone is a fan of porn though; there are plenty of people who have taken a stance of moral opposition for one reason or another, and these people wish to disestablish porn in society. I have my doubts about the realistic nature of this stance. I mean, really, how well has that worked for other things? Think drug-free advertisements and abstinence-only education…

Efforts to eradicate pornography and its prominence in society will never be entirely successful. Instead, our time would be better spent raising awareness about the influence pornography has in our lives and the way it can affect our interactions within relationships and sex. The first step is starting a conversation: people want to talk about these things; however, there is a lack of a socially acceptable forum in which to do this. By at least starting a dialogue about all of the effects (both positive and negative) associated with consumption of pornography, we will be able to encourage and facilitate healthier interactions within sexual relationships. So what are you waiting for? Let’s talk about porn!

Monday, September 20, 2010


I decided to drive to work today, and I got an opportunity to listen to NPR. The story was on human connections and the importance of touch. Scientists have discovered that touch, whether it be a hug or a pat on the back, can have a lot of positive affects on your biology, like releasing Oxytocin, “a neuropeptide, which basically promotes feelings of devotion, trust and bonding”.

I found this particularly interesting because sometimes all someone needs is a good hug to make them feel better, and clearly there is a biological foundation for this feeling/reaction. It is also fascinating given the gendered nature of touch. Hugging and other emotional aspects of touch are perceived as being a feminine activity or attribute, but it seems that everyone can benefit from a good pat on the back (literally). So, I urge everyone to break down some gender norms, and the next time you see someone stressed, sad, or maybe even having a great day, give them a well placed pat on the back (or a hug if they are into that kind of thing).

What's That Smell?

In today’s day and age, it is apparent that sexuality is more openly shared and freely expressed. Unfortunately, a few of my co-workers and I discovered firsthand just how open sexuality is being expressed (and it was NOT in a positive way)…..

One of the wonderful staff members at the WRC, Megan Woiwodie, came into work on Thursday telling us of this “interesting” ad she and her roommates had stumbled upon over the weekend. The product, in short, is a vaginal essence spray men can use to masturbate with.

Now, I’m not opposed to masturbation if that is what a man or a woman chooses to do based upon their own morals, but to have a spray that can be used to masturbate with that smells like a woman’s vagina is a little, oh, what’s the word, CREEPY.

But if I thought that this creeptastic product for men stopped there, well, I was sorely mistaken. The staff and I logged onto Youtube to see the ad (which, for the record, when you have to log in and prove that you’re 18 years or older to see a clip, you know it’s bad news) and we were all appalled. To view the clip:


So, between watching the intrusive shots of the woman sweating on the bike seat and then the man sniffing the same bike seat after the fact, I was unsure as to whether I should vomit or call the authorities as there was obviously a stalker on the loose.

Moral of the story, while sexuality may be more openly shared, there are some lines that never should be crossed and one of those lines is vaginal scented spray….

Thursday, September 16, 2010

What a Waist

I recently saw an advertisement for the General Nutrition Center's “Burn 60” pill. If you purchase the diet pills, you get this ugly bag free. This is yet another diet pill and yet another advertisement giving women an ideal body image that is an unhealthy one. If I only had a nickel…

The waist on the left is not unhealthy or fat! GNC is creating a problem and then giving you their product as a solution in the same breath. “You don’t feel bad about your body? Well, you should. Oh you feel bad about your body? Sorry to hear that. But fortunately for you, we can help! Buy our product. We’re always looking out for you.” This is often the type of advertisements directed at women: to make them feel bad, and then to sell the product to make women feel better. What a trap!

I also think it is terrible that a store with the word “nutrition” in the name is advocating a body image that is so clearly unhealthy. Attaching the word “nutrition” to this image of a body is giving the idea that having a waist the same circumference as your wrist is healthy.

Wednesday, September 15, 2010

Blame It On Culture

I grew up in a rather strict household where if I wanted to spend the night at a friend’s house, my mother would retort with “why would you want to sleep in someone’s house, when you can sleep in your own house?” Bed times were set, punishments were enforced and church on Sundays was mandatory. After leaving Catholic school, I entered into a public institution were I immediately saw a difference between me and the other children; they cursed more, they had relationships (well, relationships appropriate for a 7th grader), and best of all they knew things about sex and body parts that I have never heard of.

I tell you all of this because of an article I read comparing the Dutch to Americans. The article states facts like: ‘"two thirds of Dutch fifteen to seventeen-year-olds with steady boy- or girlfriends is allowed to spend the night with them in their bedrooms.” Yet the birth rate among American teens is a whopping eight times that of the Dutch. Their reasoning is that American parents view teenage relationships as insignificant and petty, while Dutch parents treat such relationships as normal and healthy. As a result, Dutch teens engage in safe sex when in committed relationships while many American teenagers are having unprotected sex outside of relationships. They also, of course, cite Americans’ affiliation with religion, and abstinence- only education programs as being other reasons for high teen pregnancy and abortion rates, but that is old news.

It is an interesting point of view, and one I can relate with because I was once sheltered due to the kind of school I attended and the people I was exposed to while I was there. Luckily, the move from private to public facilitated an awakening of sorts, where I became exposed to more information about sexual health, although not exactly comprehensive information about sexual health.

Reading about the differences between us and the Dutch makes me a bit envious; they have comprehensive sex-ed programs, accessible reproductive healthcare, and adults who treat adolescent relationships with respect; AND THEY BEAT URUGUAY IN THE WORLD CUP! Sorry, I had to throw that last one in there; I’m still fuming about the loss.

Tuesday, September 14, 2010

Goin' Too Far?

There’s this interesting thing that happens at the Recreation Center most evenings. The basketball/volleyball courts are surrounded by a mesh curtain to keep balls and other equipment from spilling out onto the running track that encircles all the courts. So, in the evenings, there will be a heated basketball game going on and hovering outside the mesh curtain will be a group of beautiful young women. And when I say beautiful women, I don’t mean inherently beautiful. I mean beautiful on purpose, as in perfectly styled hair, make-up, matching accessories, stylish and wrinkle free outfits, and cute shoes that have no business in a recreation center.

At first I was incredibly annoyed with these people. How dare they mill around in the middle of a racing track when people are trying to jog? That doesn’t even make sense! And how lame is it to come to the Rec, not to get exercise, but to stand around and look “cute”. Then I realized that these girls are probably freshmen, who have yet to find a real space on campus. They are still teenagers. I realized they are just trying to make friends and check out the cute guys playing basketball. They could be doing worse things.

As I was leaving the recreation center the other day, I was able to bear witness to an interesting scene.

Up ahead of me was a group of the beautiful women heading back toward the dorms. Behind me was a group of basketball players, fresh off the court, presumably also heading back to the dorms. They were discussing the girls ahead of them, loud enough for the girls to hear. Conversation quickly turned toward one girl in particular.

Man One: She goin’.

Man Two: Which one?

Man One: In the brown hat.

Man Two: Girl in the brown hat? She ain’t goin’!

Man One: Yes she is, in the brown hat, she goin’.

I figured they were talking about some party later on and I thought, “Well, the girl in the brown hat accomplished her mission: she got the attention of the boys and now they’re excited to see her at the party later on.”

They debated whether or not she was going a couple seconds more when the girl in the brown hat turned around and yelled, “WHAT?!”

“He said you goin’!” Man Two said referencing Man One’s comments.

The girl was livid. “I ain’t goin’, don’t say that!”

At this point I realized I was mistaken about the party scenario. I inferred that the term “goin” in this context meant something about promiscuity, as opposed to the Standard American English meaning. An search later on confirmed my guess.

“No, you goin, I already know!” Man One insisted.

“I ain’t goin, you goin!”

The group of boys just laughed at her retort. She said f*@k you and kept walking.

It’s sad that a young woman took the time to pick out an outfit (with a matching brown hat), carefully applied her make-up and styled her hair, and went to the Rec, probably in the hopes of catching the eye of some young man; hoping he would think she was pretty and worth hanging out with. For her troubles, she was publicly humiliated, and labeled a slut. Her friends did not defend her. None of the other men did either and neither did I …

It’s such a fine line for the heterosexual woman. Society tells you to be pretty and sexy—my own family tells me to do this—in order to “catch” a good man. Yet don’t go too far, don’t look too eager, and don’t be too sexy, because then you might be mistaken for a woman who’s “goin”: a woman who actually has sex and likes having a sex, instead of just appearing sexy.

What a hot mess.

Growing Concerns: Access to Abortion?

We all know that many if not most women, face some degree of difficulty when it comes to being presented with all options during pregnancy, including information about and access to abortion. As of late, more and more laws are being passed that are slowly infringing upon the little access to abortion that women do have. Kaili Joy Gray outlines these concerns in this article on AlterNet.

Although I disagree with Gray’s comparison of anti-choicers in the U.S. to “American Taliban”, (what they do is definitely wrong, however I feel the comparison might be a bit extreme and sensationalist) she does a wonderful job at outlining what a woman who faces an unwanted pregnancy may go through when trying to access an abortion.

The right of a woman to make a choice about her body, namely whether or not to have a child, is fundamental. We cannot allow the anti-choice movement to “sneakily” decrease accessibility more and more. Even if abortion is still legal, if it’s not accessible to the women who need it most then it doesn’t matter.

*If you’re interested in learning more about accessibility to reproductive rights or making sure that we don’t lose them, check out Advocates for Choice NIU, a reproductive rights student activist group on campus.

Friday, September 10, 2010

Oh Yes, It's Ladies Night

So, not that long ago I turned 21 years old, which is the dream of any college student. Personally, I see 21 as just another year I’ve been alive and another year that gives me more responsibility to conduct myself as a responsible member of society.
Since my birthday, I’ve been watching the alcohol debate go on (and on, and on). Listening to everything from how the drinking age should be lowered, to how .08 blood alcohol content (BAC) is too high, and if people want to drive, they should have a BAC of no more than .02. I could go on, but, as not to bore you, I will stop there.
Well, one of the alcohol issues I recently came across is “Ladies Night.” Ladies Night refers to women getting into the bar at a discounted cover charge and possibly getting reduced prices on drinks. The article that I read was about a lawsuit that deemed “Ladies Night” was unconstitutional because it discriminates against men. The article can be located at

Now, I’m risking my life as a feminist to state this point, but, I have to agree with not having “Ladies Nights.” WHOA, hold up. Don’t go away from the blog just yet. I’m opposed to “Ladies Nights” NOT because they’re discriminative against men and we have to advance the right of men (Oh, please. Society’s been there, done that), but because essentially bars are giving ladies reduced prices on booze and letting them in for cheap to draw women to their bar. And why do they do that???? So that the bar has closer ratios of men and women which makes heterosexual male patrons stick around that bar longer. You may ask yourself: Well who cares and so what? Well, then you have to examine whether or not we are willing to have “Ladies Nights” even if it’s just for the exploitation of women. For me, the answer is a resounding no.

Wednesday, September 8, 2010

My Mic Sounds Nice

My Mic Sounds Nice: A Truth About Women in Hip-Hop is BET’s first original documentary. It aired last week but I missed it! I’ve managed to find some clips online and hopefully will get a chance to watch the full show. Even from just watching some excerpts, I’ve been inspired to really consider the state of women in hip-hop. First and foremost, this documentary is not about “video vixens” or the models that perform in many rap videos. That debate is well known and documented. This documentary focuses on female MCs or “femcees”.

I’m glad this documentary was made and I’m glad it included the voices of actual female rappers, from all areas of the genre. One point of discussion, to which there are no easy answers, is the sexualization of female emcees and the pressure to be “sexy” in order to gain commercial success. Many artists and industry professionals commented on Nicki Minaj as she is the hottest femcee commercially right now. I found it annoying that Nicki Minaj did not have a voice in the documentary. Maybe they asked her, maybe they didn’t—it could’ve been a scheduling conflict. But it was highly conspicuous that she did not appear.

I just think it’s really easy to sit back and judge a woman with a “sexy” image, as if she is holding women back or simply playing into a patriarchal hierarchy of oppression. There are women who value being perceived as “sexy”. There are women who relate to Nicki Minaj, her image, and her lyrical content. Why do we have to assume she is simply conforming to the expectations of a male audience? I think it’s more conspicuous when an artist who debuts with a more, how do I say it, masculine or androgynous image, and then suddenly transforms into a hyper-feminine version of herself when sales drop. Nicki Minaj has not been out for long, but she’s been consistent with her image. Maybe being sexy and feminine is Nicki being true to herself. I don’t know. Either way, if you’re looking for an interesting look at women in the rap game, go to and check out: My Mic Sounds Nice: A Truth About Women in Hip-Hop.

Talk Derby To Me

Women from all walks of life are teaming up to participate in an alternative, stress-relieving, exciting sport: roller derby. Although roller derby has been around for years, a new wave of women has taken up the sport once again. These women, who carry on “typical” lives during the day, don a different role in the evening while practicing hip checks and crossovers. Everything about this sport is just plain awesome; from their cool derby names (Hello Hermione Danger!) to their awesome attire, this sport is both intriguing and intimidating.

In a recent article by The Chronicle, women from all walks of life are participating in derby. One particular group, who are all students and faculty from the University of Missouri, are known as the ‘Smackademics’ by their fans--awesome. Can you imagine your pediatrician throwing down with your elementary school teacher? Once you get over the shock factor, you can truly appreciate what these women are doing and the message they are sending: women are not delicate flowers and not only can they participate in contact sports, but they can excel in them too. Oh yeah, and they can kick your ass.

Tuesday, September 7, 2010

Does Carrying Condoms Make You a Prostitute?

According to a recent case, no. While this seems like commons sense, this has been a question for some time, as having condoms is often included in evidence against those who are being charged with prostitution. A judge in New York City has ruled in favor of a woman who was arrested on charges of “loitering for the purpose of engaging in a prostitution offense.” She was arrested for talking to men in an area “frequented by prostitution.” Additionally, she had condoms in her bag.

Wow…what a slut! Clearly the only reason that a woman would talk to men on a street at night or have condoms in her bag is because she is a sex worker. Forget being lost and asking for directions or wanting to be prepared to have safe sex were the situation to arise.

This is a clear violation of the woman’s rights. Further, all women should be able to carry condoms or other barriers without being labeled a sex worker. Thankfully, in this case the judge understood this and ruled in favor of the woman in question. However, this is more than just a question of women having condoms or talking to men on a street, it’s about the devaluing and even criminalizing of women’s sexuality. Contrary to popular belief, women are sexual beings, and, as such, have the right to make their own decisions about their sexuality, which includes being sexually active and even being a sex worker.

Sexuality is often a taboo area. When it comes to women, society enforces double standards which allow for men to have much more freedom when it comes to sexuality than women. Women are held to a standard that they must be “pure” and only engage in heterosexual sex within martial relationships. If a woman’s sexuality does not fit into these parameters, then she is devalued, labeled and judged. It is time for this to end. Women’s autonomy (I know, you thought that autonomous women were a myth) extends to their sexuality, and they have the right to make decisions about sex, plan ahead, and protect themselves in sexual relationships without consequence. I hope that this case will serve as an example for further cases and allow for the mainstream view of women’s sexuality to change.

You can read the article I cited from in its entirety here at

Friday, September 3, 2010

At the Intersection

Hello everyone! I hope everybody enjoyed their summer vacation away from the worries of papers, tests, and academia. This summer I started working at the Women’s Resource Center while taking summer classes. One of the most profound classes I took this summer (or during my entire career at Northern) was in American Sign Language: AHRS 101.

As I jump back into this semester, I do so with a new found determination to appreciate intersecting identities, particularly since they are not always as apparent as everyone thinks they are. The example I’m getting at is Marlee Matlin who is an actor, a writer, and a woman who is Deaf. Not only has she made it in a profession that is very difficult for any individual to succeed in. but she is doing it as a woman with a “disability” (which according to many in the Deaf World isn’t a disability at all, but more on that later).

Recently I was determined to see Matlin in the movie Children of a Lesser God where she became the first Deaf woman to gain an Oscar award for her work as an Actress in a Leading Role. While searching YouTube, I found this incredible clip of Marlee talking about what it means to be a member of society who is seen as “different.”

All in all, I wish everyone could fully accept and appreciate intersecting identities and perseverance as much as Matlin does. Just some food for thought.

Thursday, September 2, 2010

These Are Not Your Boyfriend's Jeans

I have a love/hate relationship with “boyfriend” jeans and any other “boyfriend” clothing. I love that they are masculine clothes that come in my size. I hate the offensive heteronormative name for them. As a gay woman, I am not aspiring to find a nice boyfriend, thus I’ll never know the joy of wearing a male lovers clothing. Shucks.

I find the jeans a strange mix of masculine clothing for women, but policing that with a strict hetero-normative reminder to keep women in check. I mean, without the title “boyfriend”, they might as well call them *gasp* “lesbian jeans.” And big retailers just cannot be having their customers getting confused with the lesbians.

So, you have to maintain your heterosexual cutsiness by referencing a boyfriend,even if you don’t have one. Cause, remember, you’re not supposed to look butch or masculine, you’re supposed to look CUTE. Like that time when you were three and trekked around the house in your father’s work boots and everyone thought you were just so damn adorable. It’s just like that.

Wednesday, September 1, 2010

Due to the fact that I no longer have DVR (and cannot skip through the commercials), I have been forced to watch extremely annoying advertisements for all sorts of products. But I must say one commercial I LOVE watching (besides that cute lizard guy) is the U by Kotex commercials. These Kotex commercials poke fun at other advertisements which portray the menstrual cycle as some euphoric pool/dance party. Not only does it mock silly plots for these ads, it also takes a shot at typical marketing schemes these commercials use to sell their products (i.e. dynamic angle shots, a beautiful model, etc.). This makes for a hilarious commercial.

After looking into the these ads a bit more, I learned that Kotex took it a step up by conducting social experiments about feminine products and female issues in general, and then taped them via hidden camera. My favorite experiment has to be of a man asking strangers to help him pick out some feminine products for his girlfriend. I loved this experiment because: a. it showed a man (although a bit clueless) okay with buying feminine products, b. the people he stopped (both men and women) began to realize how superfluous some of these products were (scented tampons?), and c. when the gentleman asked a women “why would they make tampons out of cardboard?”, her exasperated reply was “it’s a man’s world, and men make these products”--interesting.